tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post1194875019904496596..comments2024-03-29T04:34:05.185-04:00Comments on CURMUDGUCATION: Relatively PregnantPeter Greenehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16511193640285760299noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-31871787094281534872016-07-02T12:18:45.610-04:002016-07-02T12:18:45.610-04:00I think it's important to state that each chil...I think it's important to state that each child is unique (not exactly like anyone else), because I think too many people don't realize this about children (or people in general), so they label them and put them in categories and try to standardize instruction.<br /><br />It's true that words change meaning in any spoken language (Latin doesn't change any more because it's a "dead" language because nobody speaks it.) There are always people who say the word isn't being used "correctly", but it's considered "correct" when a majority of educated speakers use it the new way. Tiffany is using "relatively unique" to mean "having some original qualities", and I think another way "unique" is used now is to mean that something or someone stands out from the norm.Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-12401837973809730182016-07-02T08:38:42.733-04:002016-07-02T08:38:42.733-04:00Ms Wilkinson - Allow me to offer another possibili...Ms Wilkinson - Allow me to offer another possibility - that perhaps Mr. Greene is mistaken. That the tests are, in fact, standards based. <br /><br />The tests may be all of those things. They may also be helpful to researchers and policymakers. IMO, what matters more is what assessment looks like the other 176 days of the year. Jennifer Borgioli Binishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490308598117294457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-41480665978966187022016-07-02T08:10:49.889-04:002016-07-02T08:10:49.889-04:00But if everyone is unique, then it would never mak...But if everyone is unique, then it would never make sense to say that anyone is unique. It would not distinguish anyone from anyone else. It would not increase our information about anyone. We already know that they are unique. We are all unique. So, what is meant by calling someone "unique"? This is why some dictionaries have unusual as one of the meanings of "unique." I think that there are two senses or meaning to the word, and I don't see anything wrong with that. Many words start out meaning one thing and are transformed or expanded to mean other things. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07228908566250306699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-71282414641210250442016-07-01T23:31:02.257-04:002016-07-01T23:31:02.257-04:00Ms. Binis, I'm not certain how you arrived at ...Ms. Binis, I'm not certain how you arrived at the conclusion that BS tests are standard-based. Mr. Greene clarified that point pretty clearly. As for examples of the rampant number of errors in the tests, there have been hundreds of blog post & articles describing these, so you might want to spend some time reviewing that literature. These errors are clearly far more than occasional printing snafus, and range from questions with confusing wording to questions with no correct answer. I also find your thinking odd about how critiquing BS testing is shooting the teaching profession in the foot, as it appears that the testing is a far larger problem than the critiquing. At this point, the theory behind these tests matters far less than the truth that they are pointless, detrimental, and expensive.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01223251137400603071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-67959933171533772472016-07-01T17:26:54.439-04:002016-07-01T17:26:54.439-04:00Jenn
Before NCLB, state-wide testing was not a pr...Jenn<br /><br />Before NCLB, state-wide testing was not a problem because they weren't Big Stakes. Nobody didn't graduate because of them. Nobody didn't get promoted to the next grade just because of them. Schools didn't get closed because of them. Other classes weren't cut to make room for test prep. Learning how to use the stupid testing format and how to game it didn't take up real instruction time. Schools didn't have to spend millions of dollars when they're underfunded to begin with on expensive computer systems to take tests, systems that often ended up not working on test day. School personnel didn't feel they had to cheat because the tests and how they're used to close schools were unfair. Teachers weren't fired because of the use of invalid VAM scores.<br /><br />The real albatross isn't the federally-mandated tests, it's the Big Stakes that are still attached to them. There's no way to work around them and the damage they're still doing.<br /><br />Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-12297333657940106392016-07-01T17:06:05.234-04:002016-07-01T17:06:05.234-04:00"Unique" comes from the word "one&q..."Unique" comes from the word "one" and is supposed to mean the only one of its kind, that there is nothing else in the world exactly like it. (Regarding education, I would say that every child is unique, even though there are often some similarities in attributes among different children.) However, nowadays the way people use it, it ends up meaning simply "unusual". Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-79642673088628038182016-07-01T11:57:06.843-04:002016-07-01T11:57:06.843-04:00I don't disagree with the content of your post...I don't disagree with the content of your post, but I do disagree with your disagreement with the phrase "relatively unique". Taken independently, you can be relatively unique. "There's nothing new under the sun." There are very few truly original thoughts and ideas to be had, very few patterns of behavior that haven't been exhibited before. *grabs random books* As a writer, if you compare Inkheart (Cornelia Funke) to Fangirl (Rainbow Rowell), you'll discover that they are extremely unique. But if you compare Inkheart to The Neverending Story, you find "young child enters fantasy world, cross-pollination between reality and fantasy world, young child saves fantasy world using RL knowledge". And if you compare Fangirl to Harry Potter, you discover that Fangirl is basically a description of what happens when us HP addicts grow up and have to go to college. Or compare it to An Abundance of Katherines (John Green) and get the same theme of quirky romance overcoming obsessions. Now, I'm not one to bag on authors and I believe each of these books has great individual value and is unique because each author handles the subject matter differently, but still. I do think that "relative uniqueness" is a thing that can really exist, depending on whether you're comparing similar things or unlike things.<br /><br />None of this has anything to do with test scores or your actual point. I simply object to the initial metaphor.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04413670166487091223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-25678033824817552772016-07-01T10:48:29.751-04:002016-07-01T10:48:29.751-04:00NY Teacher - if you're asking me if I think Mu...NY Teacher - if you're asking me if I think Multiple Choice is a good format for literacy - No. No, I do not think MC is ideal when it comes to literature and poetry. No one asked me though, when they wrote NCLB and now ESSA. FWIW, when English teachers ask me about writing MC questions for her English class in order to "prepare students" for state tests (a not-infrequent question), I offer alternatives. <br /><br />Rebecca - The albatross is federally-mandated large scale testing. It's been around for decades. Before NCLB, states had some form of state-wide testing. After NCLB, all states have them. ESSA kept the requirement. They're not going away. My pragmatic take is we figure out a way to live with them and work around them to make school a place children want to be 180 days of the year. Jennifer Borgioli Binishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490308598117294457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-47112189028067375342016-07-01T10:36:59.693-04:002016-07-01T10:36:59.693-04:00And "what", exactly, is this "albat...And "what", exactly, is this "albatross"? Because I have no clarity on it from what you've said.Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-5206128820956108772016-07-01T09:09:53.060-04:002016-07-01T09:09:53.060-04:00When I asked you in the last thread about using th...When I asked you in the last thread about using the MC format for subjective test items (in ELA) you were unwilling to refute this obvious form of test design malpractice was very revealing. <br /><br />Will you refute it here? And now? And in clear terms?<br /><br />I did not coin the term testocrat, but I will take credit (linguistic creativity?) for the the very descriptive word "psychomagician" on whose side you clearly stand.NY Teacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06584135103498426410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-12270359595950724042016-07-01T09:06:38.074-04:002016-07-01T09:06:38.074-04:00Eric - you sweet talker, you!
I wasn't confu...Eric - you sweet talker, you! <br /><br />I wasn't confusing them - I was speaking to the issue of scale. What happened at the Academies was intimate, ad hoc and often informal. The Shang (not Sing - autocorrect got me there) Dynasty exams were about taking it to scale - about sampling a skill set in order to make inferences about a test takers abilities. I'm fully aware that the field of pyschometrics wouldn't emerge until much later.<br /><br />In other news, be sure to check out my podcast, Ed History 101 - in the episode on grades, I go into the topic in more depth :) Jennifer Borgioli Binishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490308598117294457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-25509826244426794772016-07-01T08:32:02.662-04:002016-07-01T08:32:02.662-04:00How in the world could math tests given in ancient...How in the world could math tests given in ancient Greece, say at Plato's academy, be fruits of a tree that supposedly started in the Sing (Song?) Dynasty? That is absurd. You are confusing the creation of a test with the study of testing and human measurement. Two different things. In fact, you are so loose with your terms and statements, that you don't seem to have any serious concern with the truth. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07228908566250306699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-73293909000097483382016-07-01T08:00:52.528-04:002016-07-01T08:00:52.528-04:00NY teacher - it's Jenn. Two N's.
I'm...NY teacher - it's Jenn. Two N's. <br /><br />I'm not sure what else to say here. I will offer that, while I enjoy being snarked at as much as the next person, at no point have I said the tests promote authentic teaching and learning, or have I defended their mis-use. <br /><br />My goal is speaking up on this post was to offer some clarity around a giant albatross in the education system. As an advocate for and defender of authentic and meaningful assessment, I believe we're better served by understanding the albatross, calling it what it is, and moving on. <br /><br />I have no idea what a testocrat is. Though I do admire the linguistic creativity. And to the previous thread - I suspect you missed my follow-up question to you about MC questions. Jennifer Borgioli Binishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490308598117294457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-50671440654737314712016-07-01T07:44:47.518-04:002016-07-01T07:44:47.518-04:00Jen states, “Let's say, hypothetically, that a...Jen states, “Let's say, hypothetically, that all students got almost every single item/task correct on an NCLB-mandated test (PARCC, etc.). All students would be proficient. The students who got 99% correct wouldn't "fail" or be deemed "not proficient" even though some students scored higher than them.”<br /><br />This is an absurd suggestion. The type of standardized tests (PARRC, SBAC, SAT, ACT, etc.) we are discussing here are developed using a wide range of pre-tested items that makes this IMPOSSIBLE. The sole intent of standardized test design is to create a bell curve into which an arbitrary, “pass-fail” cut score is placed. Your insistence that true Standardized tests are criterion referenced is ridiculous. Conflating the development and use of true Standardized tests and common, every-day teacher-made classroom quizzes or tests is weak attempt at distraction. You talk in circles about simple straight forward ideas and cannot provide simple yes or no answers to objective questions. When I asked you in the last thread about using the MC format for subjective test items (in ELA) you were unwilling to refute this obvious form of test design malpractice was very revealing. <br /><br />Jen, you have spent far too much time in the assessment bubble because you show no sign of understanding the overriding point here: the BS tests have NO educational value – they cannot inform instruction, they do not promote authentic teaching and learning, they waste valuable time and money, and their misuse has undermined healthy classroom dynamics and best teaching practices. All the testo-babble in the world will never change that. And based on most of your commentary here, no, we are not preaching to the choir; we are preaching to just another testocrat.<br />NY Teacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06584135103498426410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-22608995437189429602016-07-01T07:32:26.417-04:002016-07-01T07:32:26.417-04:00Hello again, Cruch! On the issue of standardizatio...Hello again, Cruch! On the issue of standardization - Peter and I have exchanged a few posts on the topic. The last one: https://jennbbinis.com/2015/10/30/what-exactly-is-standardization-in-assessment-design/Jennifer Borgioli Binishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490308598117294457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-53465748710935732592016-07-01T07:31:05.335-04:002016-07-01T07:31:05.335-04:00Not sure what else to say here, Crunch. I could gi...Not sure what else to say here, Crunch. I could give the phone number of a friend of mine who worked on the design committee. I could share pictures taken of the rooms filled with teachers during the design process. I could continue to hunt down links to show what made PARCC design so different but... one can only go around the merry-go-round so many times. Have a good one! :) Jennifer Borgioli Binishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490308598117294457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-74012527881480650282016-06-30T21:59:55.474-04:002016-06-30T21:59:55.474-04:00Rebecca - there's a reason I referenced "...Rebecca - there's a reason I referenced "teacher-created final exams." Those are the tests that often have the highest stakes for students. <br /><br />To the error issue, I don't know to what the other commentator was referring so there's little to be said there. Coleman is a strawman. <br /><br />In truth, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. If it's that psychometrics is indefensible, then we need to have a conversation about why so many teachers like multiple choice. If your point is that testing is the least important part of teaching and learning, you're choir preaching.Jennifer Borgioli Binishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490308598117294457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-65341355895836370442016-06-30T21:59:45.215-04:002016-06-30T21:59:45.215-04:00From Jenn...
"Standardized tests are used in ...From Jenn...<br />"Standardized tests are used in college classes - give a task to more than one student? That's standardized format. Score all students' work using the same rubric or scoring schema? That's standardized."<br /><br />I think we all here know the difference between The Tests Professor Jenn gives all her Euclidean Geometry sections and the (hypothetical) BS tests that would be given to all Euclidean Geometry college classes nationwide.<br /><br />There's "standardized" and there's "Standardized" with a Capital S. you know, the BST, not just what Professor Jenn made for her own classes.<br /><br />I can't believe we have to make that distinction here, of all places.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-90970409028423828612016-06-30T21:53:51.365-04:002016-06-30T21:53:51.365-04:00And yes, that was Common Core, not PARCC....(hit t...And yes, that was Common Core, not PARCC....(hit the wrong button)...but the link you provided was not...substantial. A link to K-12 educator *reviewers* - not test designers, a link to one ELA teacher about CCSS & PARCC, more about test *review* (not creation)...Sorry, but can't take that seriously as "the vast majority of eyeballs that looked at PARCC in the design process belong[ing] to teachers."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-57719339520331491762016-06-30T21:53:41.109-04:002016-06-30T21:53:41.109-04:00The field of psychometrics was, in effect, discove...The field of psychometrics was, in effect, discovered during the Sing Dynasty when the emperor designed a series of tasks for potential government employees to complete.<br /><br />All measures of human learning are fruits of that tree. Jennifer Borgioli Binishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490308598117294457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-49909834599545787002016-06-30T21:48:19.042-04:002016-06-30T21:48:19.042-04:00Count the actual classroom teachers, then: http://...Count the actual classroom teachers, then: http://blogs.edweek.org/teachers/living-in-dialogue/2009/07/national_standards_process_ign.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-71125775152974854322016-06-30T18:22:44.526-04:002016-06-30T18:22:44.526-04:00Teachers have been giving math tests to students f...Teachers have been giving math tests to students for millenia. One doesn't need the fruit of the psychometric tree to give a math test. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07228908566250306699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-56423358249846327042016-06-30T17:23:38.635-04:002016-06-30T17:23:38.635-04:00The authors, designers, etc. of large-scale tests ...The authors, designers, etc. of large-scale tests never claimed to do any of those things. Different tests have different purposes. Jennifer Borgioli Binishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490308598117294457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-81233068207345874842016-06-30T17:21:54.887-04:002016-06-30T17:21:54.887-04:00There are different ways of comparing students. In...There are different ways of comparing students. In a norm-referenced test (i.e the tests used to identify children with disabilities), a child's performance is compared to his/her peers to determine his/her scores. For large scale tests, the goal is compare students' performance across subgroups (the so-called "achievement gap"), schools, districts, or states. So ... it's both.Jennifer Borgioli Binishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17490308598117294457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-27046711961644885892016-06-30T16:22:18.307-04:002016-06-30T16:22:18.307-04:00Jennifer
If a student got a 64 on a teacher-creat...Jennifer<br /><br />If a student got a 64 on a teacher-created test, depending on what the test was for, the teacher could see where the problem areas are, tutor the student, and re-give the test. That cannot be done with the BS tests because we can't even see them.<br /><br />So the director of SBAC is not a good person to speak for the field of psychometrics?<br /><br />So you're saying that any test a teacher gives is using psychometrics, yet psychometrics is so complicated it's like rocket science, and the reason for a standards-based test to not be graded immediately like the motorcycle exam is impossible to explain? A good teacher can explain anything they understand to anyone so that the other person can also understand it. <br /><br />Why are there so many errors? Why are the ELA standards and associated tests developmentally inappropriate? Maybe because the author, David Coleman, is not an expert in anything except perhaps "close reading."<br /><br />Your definition of "standardized test" is any test given to more than one person. My definition of "standardized test" is a test not created by the teacher who did the actual teaching.<br /><br />Neither of your analogies, the one about the brain surgeon/meditation book, or that of the pilot license, makes any sense. I hope you're not putting analogies on the tests you design.<br /><br />Designing assessments is only one small part of the learning process and one small part of what we do as teachers. It's by far the easiest part. Designing how to teach the lesson is much harder. Creating a community in the classroom is much harder. The assessment design comes from the design of the teaching.<br /><br />You say you're not a fan of the way the BS tests are being misused. Then you shouldn't be upset when Peter criticizes this. If I were a psychometrician, and my tests were being used in ways they were not designed for and were causing harm, which these tests are, I would be the most vocal voice against them, join with others who also realized this, and refuse to make them if they're going to be misused. Otherwise it is like Peter's analogy of nuclear power. Or, if this isn't too much over the top, maybe it's analogous to the way psychologists were complicit in CIA torture. I certainly would refuse to be knowingly involved in causing the real harm that these tests are causing unless I had a metaphorical gun to my head.<br /><br />Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.com