tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post5824308702120128350..comments2024-03-27T08:53:29.267-04:00Comments on CURMUDGUCATION: Don't Call Me A ReformerPeter Greenehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16511193640285760299noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-29742805665787025602018-12-03T00:21:04.546-05:002018-12-03T00:21:04.546-05:00"go check it out in the real world and please..."go check it out in the real world and please report back."<br /><br />I have stood in a sea of hundreds and hundreds of kids waiting to take the ISEE exam in Boston trying to get into district exam schools: Boston Latin, the John D. O'Bryant, Boston Latin Academy. By contrast the district's pilot high schools are not supposed to select on the basis of academic achievement, but are welcome to require essays, interviews and auditions to screen and select students. I've helped kids striving, with limited success, to get into those district schools, and also helped them, as recently as last weekend spend a couple of minutes swiftly submitting a name/address/contact number application to get simultaneously entered into lotteries for virtually all the grade-appropriate charter schools throughout Boston. There are a bunch of kids from several families within 50 feet of here who have attended a variety of charter schools, including one from the network you mention. <br /><br />My experience in the real world does not reconcile at all well with your assertions.<br /><br />You had said: " But the public school system must educate all students."<br /><br />As you'll probably realize, when you think about it, kids here, as is the case elsewhere, sometimes leave the public school system to attend programs operated by 501(c)3 public charities for kids with disabilities, or are sent to Department of Youth Service programs that are not operated by the school district, or to psychiatric facilities or jails where they have no contact with their previous school. I have plenty of real world experience with such circumstances.<br /><br />But I think a valid point you could be making is that there are some under-subscribed Boston district schools that serve a more challenging student population than the great majority of charter schools. I'd grant you that.Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03647198428780707207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-89312613018556848802018-12-02T23:11:02.031-05:002018-12-02T23:11:02.031-05:00This statement is not true and never is: "mo...This statement is not true and never is: "more selection of students is done by district schools in Boston than is done by charter schools." Obviously it's not convenient to support my observation with "solid, research-based evidence." This is a casual discussion on a blog, not an academic research paper. My point is valid on its face. Go ask 20 people who are involved in charter school communities if their schools are selective. If they're not in the know about having to lie about it, they'll eagerly and proudly tell you yes -- or they'll say things like "No, we admit anyone as long as the family commits to 50 work hours a year"... etc. I've had these discussions endless times over the years. That's what charter school communities view as their big advantage. Go read the chapter on KIPP in Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" in which he quotes a KIPP student as saying the principal tried to scare her about how much work she would have to do and she almost decided not to attend, and her friends won't attend KIPP because it's too much work. That's a book, but go check it out in the real world and please report back. carolinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08127336930949752636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-74106008086981462072018-12-02T22:33:07.230-05:002018-12-02T22:33:07.230-05:00Could you kindly quote specifically which statemen...Could you kindly quote specifically which statements I made and/or that MacLeod and Urquiola made "that's not true and never is" and, if convenient, support your opinion with solid, research-based evidence? Thanks.<br />Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03647198428780707207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-77686438410743025372018-12-02T21:28:47.308-05:002018-12-02T21:28:47.308-05:00No, that's not true and never is, Stephen. Spe...No, that's not true and never is, Stephen. Specific public schools -- magnet and specialty schools -- do select students. But the public school system must educate all students. Charters are completely free to pick and choose, and they never have to give another thought to the students they reject, kick out or winnow before they get near the door, while the public school district does accept and serve those students. Charters do this dishonestly and covertly while selective public schools do it openly and honestly. Yet within the charter communities, this selectivity is viewed as a key feature of the charter -- while to the outside world, the charter sector lies about it, as demonstrated right here in this thread by your post. <br /><br />All charters (with very, very few specialized exceptions*) harm public schools by draining their resources and harm the students in those schools -- no matter how enlightened and progressive the charter pretends to be. *An exception would be San Francisco's Five Keys Charter, which serves inmates in the county jail. carolinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08127336930949752636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-12738623298821470682018-12-02T19:19:33.082-05:002018-12-02T19:19:33.082-05:00Seems there's huge variety among charter schoo...Seems there's huge variety among charter schools and they should be reviewed, and praised or criticized, on a case by case basis, while keeping in mind that in some locales, for a variety of often ascertainable reasons, they may be fairly consistently better or worse than average.<br /> <br />If you were to study circumstances in this area, and I would encourage you to do so, you'd find that rather more selection of students is done by district schools in Boston than is done by charter schools. <br /><br />I am relatively wary of circumstances where the schools, like Boston district exam and Pilot High Schools, exercise considerable choice, as well as the applicant families. W. Bentley MacLeod and Miguel Urquiola in their paper “Anti-Lemons: School Reputation and Educational Quality” wrote that “if the reputation model holds for a school market:<br />• Parents will have a clear preference for schools with higher absolute achievement—this will not necessarily translate into a preference for schools with greater value added.<br />• If schools can select students based upon ability then:<br />– School choice will result in stratification, with the highest ability/income children going to the most desirable and productive schools.<br />– School choice will result in lower student effort, and in lower incomes for students who do not gain admission to selective schools. (Note that if peer effects exist, then changes in the distribution of students will have additional effects on the level and distribution of achievement.)<br />• If schools cannot select on ability, the introduction of school choice will unambiguously raise school performance and student outcomes.”<br />http://www.columbia.edu/~msu2101/MacLeod-Urquiola(2009).pdfStephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03647198428780707207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-36719384095886589072018-12-02T16:31:39.573-05:002018-12-02T16:31:39.573-05:00Sorry, that should be "compliant, motivated s...Sorry, that should be "compliant, motivated students from supportive, high-functioning FAMILIES." carolinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08127336930949752636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-71176659959623268952018-12-02T16:22:47.885-05:002018-12-02T16:22:47.885-05:00Stephen, charters and "choice" do please...Stephen, charters and "choice" do please some parents in that situation because they are free to pick and choose students, and kick out those they don't want, and impose hurdles in the enrollment process that ensure that only compliant, motivated students from supportive, higher-functioning get in the door. They're mostly not supposed to do those things, but they're politically untouchable and not answerable to any meaningful authority, and can do whatever they want. To people in those charter communities, that's an advantage, an attractive feature (not an illegal bug). <br /><br />But they are also free to engage in all manner of corruption, mismanagement and wrongdoing as well, so that can often be a problem. <br /><br />The problem on a larger scale is that charter schools harm public schools and the children in them. Here's a commentary on how charter schools do harm in California; most if not all of it is applicable to charter schools everywhere. https://teachingmalinche.com/2018/04/29/whats-wrong-with-charter-schools-the-picture-in-california/carolinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08127336930949752636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-24557037697910252362018-12-02T15:02:03.063-05:002018-12-02T15:02:03.063-05:00Seems a generally solid analysis to me, but wish I...Seems a generally solid analysis to me, but wish I understood better what you mean here:<br /><br />"Quick example: there are schools that are really struggling to serve non-wealthy non-white students. I absolutely believe that. I don't believe charters, choice, testing, or test-based teacher evaluation help solve that problem at all."<br /><br />Charters and choice certainly are perceived as helping solve the problem for families in this neighborhood of Boston who find the nearest school is struggling in a manner that they consider unsuccessful, but who have the option to choose a district or charter school elsewhere in the city, or in the suburbs, that they think will be a better match for the students' needs. But perhaps you're focused on the fact that the struggling school may nevertheless still struggle. Testing results and diminishing enrollments can serve as triggers for additional resources being provided to the school. Results of such processes are variable, not always as excellent as portrayed here:<br />https://www.renniecenter.org/sites/default/files/2017-01/Renaissance-at-the-Jeremiah-E-Burke-High-School.pdf<br />http://orchardgardensk8.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/OGCaseStudy2.pdf<br /><br />You disagree?Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03647198428780707207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-12433932666039816522018-12-02T14:09:54.396-05:002018-12-02T14:09:54.396-05:00This is extra amusing because the so-called "...This is extra amusing because the so-called "reformers" have ALWAYS put out new messages in unison -- presumably crafted by the highly efficient messaging operations in the right-wing propaganda shops (erroneously referred to as "think tanks"). This has been the case during the nearly 20 years I've been following their activities. (For example, in past years they all spoke up at once against charter schools that are technically structured as for-profits, which they all used to vigorously support.) I predict that this message too -- we're not all in lockstep and don't call us "reformers" -- will also go out in unison from the lot of them. carolinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08127336930949752636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-84195719022990011232018-11-29T12:53:00.476-05:002018-11-29T12:53:00.476-05:00Can we call her an "Edu-Faker"?Can we call her an "Edu-Faker"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com