tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post3092863747402942885..comments2024-03-28T11:57:21.902-04:00Comments on CURMUDGUCATION: Charters Are Not Common SchoolsPeter Greenehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16511193640285760299noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-65935754238173839072015-09-30T21:46:30.236-04:002015-09-30T21:46:30.236-04:00Steven,
There are many things I did not mention b...Steven,<br /><br />There are many things I did not mention because I was posting about the inherent uniformity of schools in a district that result from traditional zoned school systems. In posts about other issues I no doubt mention other things.<br /><br />Did you notice that one of the important concerns of parents in PS307 about the rezoning is that if the school had more relatively wealthy students at the school they would lose their Title 1 funding? The federal government is, in essence, paying school districts to concentrate relatively poor students in a single school. Spread the students out and the funding goes away.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-37073645568904779722015-09-30T13:34:02.344-04:002015-09-30T13:34:02.344-04:00I appreciate that, but you didn't make any men...I appreciate that, but you didn't make any mention of the severe restraint and problems we face under current legislative policies regarding achievement gaps, test scores and funding. Essentially, we get punished for doing the right things. We accept EVERYONE, we have varied programs, and we really have a truly diverse student body. But we get killed on everything else. Let no good deed go unpunished.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-751133683448247512015-09-29T12:17:22.323-04:002015-09-29T12:17:22.323-04:00Steven,
I am glad that your school faces no capac...Steven,<br /><br />I am glad that your school faces no capacity constraints that would require students to win a lottery for admission. My district has no open enrollment schools (other than the school board run charter high school) for district residents, much less folks outside the district. The structure of K-12 education is highly local.<br /><br />I was not making an argument to get rid of traditional zoned schools. I was making an argument that school boards have an incentive to enforce uniformity across traditional zoned schools within the district. Do you see flaws in <br /><br />I certainly agree that parents who pay the extra money to buy their way into desirable catchment areas defend their purchases. You might want to look at the debate going on in Brooklyn about rezoning: http://gothamist.com/2015/09/22/dumbo_school_rezoning_fight.phpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-26528830174480535602015-09-29T11:07:16.294-04:002015-09-29T11:07:16.294-04:00Yep. Only a matter of time before TE references W...Yep. Only a matter of time before TE references Walton Rural Life Academy or whatever it's name is. <br /><br />And in reference to open enrollment, I teach in one. And guess what? We take EVERY kid that lives in our zoned district (who wants to attend our schools) along with hundreds more that live outside the district. We also have specialized programs and work with the county ISD for CTE programs. The possibilities here are highly varied.<br /><br />Of course, we're running low on cash and had to change our schedule and lay off over 10% of our teaching staff last year as a result of budget cuts from the state. The problem is continuing to finance these programs.<br /><br />And, TE, you're not getting rid of those zoned districts. You know why? The tonier neighborhoods don't want anyone to get in without residency. It's the very same people who are the so-called philanthropists. They promote charter schools, but send their kids to Ann Arbor Greenhills and Detroit Country Day. They'd never dream of letting in kids who didn't fit (unless they're stud athletes). Understand that the only districts around us that are NOT open enrollment are the wealthiest neighborhoods. <br /><br />This is where your argument falls apart. The residents of upscale communities consider it a privilege to live in that community. With those privileges come certain benefits, in their estimation. They'd say: Why let in someone who hasn't earned that privilege? They have a vested interest in keeping it exclusive.<br /><br />You know, like a charter school that reverse engineers student selectivity. Like nearly every charter school that I've encountered. We're bracing ourselves for the influx of students we'll get after Count Day. The charters get the per pupil funding but we'll get their tests scores. And we can't say no because we're open enrollment!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-15943173253326887092015-09-29T09:54:07.422-04:002015-09-29T09:54:07.422-04:00Thanks for the link! I found especially important ...Thanks for the link! I found especially important that Ms. Finne, director of a policy center which is a member of ALEC, held up as a model a charter school for homeless kids which, as Dr. Wu shows, is really horrendous. <br /><br />I also found insightful Dr. Wu's explanation of Ms. Finne's lack of understanding of her own business model: she accuses Dr. Wu of wanting to close schools, when the mantra of the model she advocates is competition and "Bad schools close" -- after failing and abandoning the students. So her model always entails closing schools.Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-8154908655546809292015-09-29T08:08:07.779-04:002015-09-29T08:08:07.779-04:00I looked at your amshq website. The school finder ...I looked at your amshq website. The school finder doesn't work very well. I managed to find that there are no charter Montessori schools within 25 miles of me, only 2 private ones, before it stopped working entirely, but I'm sure there aren't any within 100 miles.Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-19534120914270057122015-09-29T08:03:47.744-04:002015-09-29T08:03:47.744-04:00The school for pregnant girls and mothers take all...The school for pregnant girls and mothers take all girls in those circumstances in the district that want to go. But the different skill centers are all part of traditional zoned schools, as were the three elementary schools that offered foreign language. Those schools' language classes and the International Studies Center were discontinued when central administration lost interest. The district doesn't pay any attention to what parents want, even if enough of them know enough to present concerns about anything specific, which doesn't often happen. All the ideas for these schools came either from central administration or the union, or a combination of both. Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-12507687027012411832015-09-29T06:27:28.001-04:002015-09-29T06:27:28.001-04:00"Many charter schools"? Name some other..."Many charter schools"? Name some others. You're awfully good at repeatedly trotting out one example and trying to claim it's a trend.Diennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570040547158789834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-88848566472236785462015-09-28T22:27:52.058-04:002015-09-28T22:27:52.058-04:00Apologies for the double post.Apologies for the double post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-24441173528477713722015-09-28T22:26:43.866-04:002015-09-28T22:26:43.866-04:00Rebecca,
My guess is that none of those different...Rebecca,<br /><br />My guess is that none of those different types of schools are traditional zoned schools. Open enrollment schools are subject to many of the same criticisms of charter schools. For example, does your high school for pregnant students accept "every single student from its home neighborhood-- every single one, without exception"? If not, it fails Peter Greene's test.<br /><br />Interesting that you say that having a progressive school would take the will of someone in administration or the union. The will of parents and voters is not enough?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-28623854892474445192015-09-28T22:25:38.597-04:002015-09-28T22:25:38.597-04:00Rebecca,
My guess is that none of those different...Rebecca,<br /><br />My guess is that none of those different types of schools are traditional zoned schools. Open enrollment schools are subject to many of the same criticisms of charter schools. For example, does your high school for pregnant students accept "every single student from its home neighborhood-- every single one, without exception"? If not, it fails Peter Greene's test.<br /><br />Interesting that you say that having a progressive school would take the will of someone in administration or the union. The will of parents and voters is not enough?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-60951500669460980062015-09-28T22:11:45.925-04:002015-09-28T22:11:45.925-04:00Our school district has many different types of sc...Our school district has many different types of schools besides the traditional. We have two longer-day-and-year elementary schools, a robotics magnet high school, a blended (online curriculum) alternative high school, a high school for students who are pregnant or mothers. All the high schools have skill centers and students can transfer to a different school if it has a program their home school doesn't, including foreign language, of which we offer six in total. We also used to have three elementary schools that offered foreign language, and an International Studies Center that offered seven languages to students and the (paying) community. There's no reason we couldn't have a "progressive" school also, and if people liked it, it could be expanded. But it would take activism and the will of someone in administration or the union. And a better economy than we have right now, to develop a new program.Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-17142826017283990012015-09-28T20:44:15.886-04:002015-09-28T20:44:15.886-04:00Great post Peter, and thanks for the shout out Lau...Great post Peter, and thanks for the shout out Laura B.! Peter, feel free to share my response around if you want.Wayne Auhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17085248917738075672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-32125320186756927062015-09-28T18:57:35.593-04:002015-09-28T18:57:35.593-04:00I think this depends a great deal on the specific ...I think this depends a great deal on the specific charter school. Many charter schools, including the oldest like the Pennsylvania School for the Deaf, are set up specifically for students with disabilities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-22249405388364109092015-09-28T18:50:13.699-04:002015-09-28T18:50:13.699-04:00Traditional zoned schools can not provide the sort...Traditional zoned schools can not provide the sort of specialized approaches to education like Montessori or Waldorf schools. Too many families inside the catchment area will object to that approach to education and too many families outside the catchment area will object to being shut out.<br /><br />The only way that a school board can justify sending students from the 500 block of Maple street to a different school from the students on the 600 block of Maple street is by making sure that the two schools are not different in any dimension that matters.<br /><br />There are many Montessori charter schools. Here is a place to look for ones in your area: amshq.org/School-Resources/Public .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-66970115300617478662015-09-28T18:23:22.945-04:002015-09-28T18:23:22.945-04:00"that those schools were at different times n..."that those schools were at different times not open to ... until the 1970s, students with special needs and disabilities." <br /><br />OMG, they did not really say that, did they? Gary Hart moment--flashback to the 1980s and a presidential campaign when the candidate said he was not cheating on his wife and if the media did not believe him, they should follow him. The media took up the challenge and caught the philanderer.<br /><br />Gary Hart: charters are the worst when it comes to accepting and servicing students with special needs. Or why would the state of Florida identify that as a problem and offer special grants to charters to work out how to help students with an IEP?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544213160574214282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-12975370294030841402015-09-28T17:18:40.786-04:002015-09-28T17:18:40.786-04:00The bureaucracy of public schools plays a part in ...The bureaucracy of public schools plays a part in keeping methods like Montessori and Waldorf in the private sector. Each of those methods has its own teacher training programs, and gives its own certification. The standard education certificate awarded by most cities would not allow a teacher to work in a Montessori or Waldorf classroom. If a whole elementary school were to be Montessori, getting the appropriate certification would be expensive -- and who would pay that cost? In addition there are a lot of misconceptions about progressive education, and it could be hard to get an entire school district to agree to have even one school that used one of those methods. On the other hand the city of Reggio Emilia has managed to do this for the past going on 70 years, so we could learn a lot from them. I would love to see more of the principles of progressive education incorporated into our classrooms -- and they are being almost completely lost in our present test-mad environment.Margarethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15381872404054459617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-23799637841859850772015-09-28T17:17:38.368-04:002015-09-28T17:17:38.368-04:00I believe there are Montessori public schools. I ...I believe there are Montessori public schools. I know there are progressive public schools. My "hometown" (where I lived for 6.5 years of middle and high school) added a progressive elementary school a number of years ago (in one of the most conservative areas, no less). All of Winnetka, Illinois public schools are progressive. I'm not as familiar with the specifics of Montessori and Waldorf, but there's no reason that progressive education in general has to be terribly expensive. It's a about the process, not the materials or the facilities or the other bells and whistles. All you really need is a safe building and dedicated, compassionate teachers.Diennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570040547158789834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-38916648985025609932015-09-28T17:00:51.869-04:002015-09-28T17:00:51.869-04:00Oh, come on, Peter. SLANT is a groundbreaking inno...Oh, come on, Peter. SLANT is a groundbreaking innovation; a game changer.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12813056667733621829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-83506808324839090312015-09-28T16:48:37.486-04:002015-09-28T16:48:37.486-04:00In case you missed it, Wayne Au has some good resp...In case you missed it, Wayne Au has some good responses to his pro-charter critics in Seattle Education this week: https://seattleducation2010.wordpress.com/2015/09/27/dear-liv-yes-a-loss-for-alec-and-the-privatizers-makes-me-happy/ The pro-charter folks are getting particularly nasty in their propaganda now. Laura Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07657783864804528708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-85524663263931444212015-09-28T16:18:19.613-04:002015-09-28T16:18:19.613-04:00Are there any schools that are Montessori or Waldo...Are there any schools that are Montessori or Waldorf that have been tried as public schools or even charters? Because where I live the only Montessori are private and there are no Waldorf. Is there some reason they're too expensive to scale up?Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-48121508090666603742015-09-28T16:00:08.938-04:002015-09-28T16:00:08.938-04:00It should be noted that Richard Whitmire was Miche...It should be noted that Richard Whitmire was Michelle Rhee's first hagiographer. His latest book was an ode to John Danner and Rocketship. The man is a slow learner. Or perhaps just one of those who doesn't value education.<br /><br />Incidentally, when you talked about "innovation", I've been musing on that very topic. What exactly would innovation in education look like? What hasn't been tried? Whichever end of the political spectrum you hail from, we've tried it. Military schools. Traditional desks-in-rows, teacher up front, back-to-basics, bunch-o-facts, dead white guys canon schools. Religious schools. On the other end we have progressive schools, Montessori, Waldorf, Reggio Emilia, schools without walls, unschooling, you name it. We've used nearly every form of technology in nearly every way possible. What's left that hasn't been tried?Diennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570040547158789834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-49311018712557593622015-09-28T15:38:02.993-04:002015-09-28T15:38:02.993-04:00Oh, names are never minor. Thanks for that catch.Oh, names are never minor. Thanks for that catch.Peter Greenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16511193640285760299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-4507694194448957222015-09-28T15:31:02.902-04:002015-09-28T15:31:02.902-04:00Great as always. I'd maybe have more sympathy ...Great as always. I'd maybe have more sympathy for charters if they weren't actually increasing segregation:<br /><br />http://civilrightsproject.ucla.edu/news/press-releases/research/k-12-education/integration-and-diversity/choice-without-equity-2009-report<br /><br />Also, minor note, the reformy author's name is Andrew Rotherham, not Rotherman. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14592350119719894453noreply@blogger.com