tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post2248426677333569495..comments2024-03-28T19:47:39.985-04:00Comments on CURMUDGUCATION: Evil L.A. Teacher UnionsPeter Greenehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16511193640285760299noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-44652754076510390552015-11-23T23:23:14.432-05:002015-11-23T23:23:14.432-05:00Wow ! It took you about a half dozen posts to fina...Wow ! It took you about a half dozen posts to finally and begrudgingly accept that your original dare was accepted and you were proved wrong ! I quote, "Diane is NOT paid by the unions. If you have proof otherwise, please provide it. Otherwise, retract that statement."<br /><br />Now you state, "Yes, Alan, speaking fees. Cripes. You think she should speak for free? Do you?"<br /><br />So, in other words, you were wrong and she was, in fact, paid by the unions, right ? Whether or not she should speak for free isn't or me to say. My point was simply that she was a teachers union mouthpiece which is defined as someone who expresses a given viewpoint because she is paid to do so. I have proven this point ... and you have begrudgingly conceded this point. <br /><br />By contrast, I'm not paid by teachers unions OR charters. I'm simply a father and a tax payer. I see what happens in my town's schools and in nearby schools. And yes, it is pretty clear based on what I've read (including from union supporters like Ravitch) that the teachers unions are basically fighting a rearguard battle ... They know that they are losing the PR battle and that most people see charters as a means for families to gain some control over their kid's education. But teachers unions are going to use every means possible to slow the growth of charters and portray them in as negative a light as possible. They've also contributed huge dollar amounts to support a lot of races throughout the country to cement their political position and win more favorable contracts. So yes, that's my "beef" with teachers unions. <br /><br />And Hillary's position far in bed with the unions than I am. Both the NEA and the AFT have already endorsed her and their money is certainly flowing in her direction. As payment, she's already stated that she's backing the unions demand or more federal money but fewer tests without any accountability. See link. I'm sure this makes you very happy as you count your union dues.<br /><br />http://www.vox.com/2015/11/16/9743818/hillary-clinton-educationalanbackmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174033131550945945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-9291444681809855302015-11-23T23:11:00.331-05:002015-11-23T23:11:00.331-05:00Responding to your 2nd post:
You state, "Mos...Responding to your 2nd post:<br /><br />You state, "Most teachers are hardworking, dedicated, and care about the students." There are plenty of people at any job (teachers or otherwise) who are hardworking, dedicated and care about the students who are just not effective at their job. Take me as one example. When I wore a younger man's shoes, I was a bartender. I was certainly hard working and dedicated to what I did (since it paid my way through college) and certainly cared about my customers (those who came to my bar). But I just wasn't very good. I attribute this mainly to the fact that I'm not a big drinker personally, so I didn't have an innate knowledge of what some drinks were supposed to look like. Also, I wasn't very fast (which mattered particularly when you are taking care of waitresses). My point is that in the real world, you don't get an A for effort. <br /><br />Second, let's look at your own stats. By your own reckoning, your son had 3 bad teachers out of 41 (or 7.5%). One daughter had 2 bad teachers out of 49 (or 4%). And the other daughter had 4 bad teachers out of 47 (or 8%). So that averages out to about 6.5% of teachers were bad. That's not inconsequential ! You said that this didn't affect their education since "most teachers were good". But for a broad set of students, it's likely that the overall performance would be better without bad teachers than with them. <br /><br />Now you also state that standardized tests wouldn't have picked this up. Maybe you are right since these teachers certainly could have taught in subjects not tested. But the idea of standardized tests is to provide some objective measure to not only compare, but also quantify performance. You may not agree with the measurement, but consider the teachers that you rated as poor. If they received negative consequences (less pay, dismissal, whatever) as a result of subjective assessments such as yours, don't you think they'd consider such assessments as unfair as possibly biased ? By contrast, the standardized tests are at least objective and not subject to interpersonal conflicts or whatever. Again, I understand and agree with the point that they shouldn't be the sole determinant. But can you not see the value in including them as one measure of performance. If not, can you at least see how others (who do not have a vested interest as a teacher) might see your resistance as reflective of self-interest and a desire not to be judged (which all of us have) but nonetheless must be overcome. <br /><br />Charters are growing at about 7% per year and have doubled since 2007. They will likely to continue to grow. I wouldn't have an objection if teachers unions insisted on higher pay and benefits ... and even transition pay for those asked to leave the profession ... as long as they accepted the need for these reforms. There's going to come a time in the not-to-distant future when teachers unions are going to need to accept charters and the other reforms which are not going away. They can either do so now when they still control a great majority of schools or they can wait some years when charters will control an even larger share of schools thereby reducing teachers union clout. If you think this is just braggadocio, I suggest you speak to someone in a private sector union who likewise has seen their influence declined precipitously over the years. Tell your union. Accept the reforms. Negotiate the best deal they can. But understand that the reforms are coming whether teachers unions want them or not. alanbackmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174033131550945945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-48835428907970486742015-11-23T18:24:36.099-05:002015-11-23T18:24:36.099-05:00Responding to your first post:
I never said: &quo...Responding to your first post:<br /><br />I never said: "Just because only 38% of students in New York were deemed "college ready" according to scores on a standardized test doesn't mean only 38% of teachers were effective.". Rather, VAM tries to measure how things have progressed during the teaching yr. Let me take a simple example. Teacher A's students start at 20% in reading. But the teacher gets them to 30% by the end of the yr. That's better than teacher B whose students start at 70% in reading but only get to 75% by year end. <br /><br />And that largely addresses your corollary point that teachers are only responsible for a small percentage of the increase in a student's scores. Typically, the larger factors are family income and parental education. But to say that tests (and teachers) are then irrelevant is missing the point (and perhaps intentionally). It's like saying that price is a bigger factor of a car's acceleration than anything else. And that's likely true. But it misses the point. In statistics, there's something called Bayesian Probability which condition a result based on some underlying factor. In other words, given the fact that a student is poor and whose parents are not college graduates, what is the likelihood that they will be proficient if attending a charter ? And then ask this same question for a traditional school. It's like asking which cars have better acceleration conditioned on the fact that you are only looking at cars less than $30,000. <br /><br />As far as the AMA, there is ample academic support for multi-period VAM. See link. <br />http://www.colorado.edu/education/sites/default/files/attached-files/Briggs_VAM%20Inferences_101511.pdfalanbackmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174033131550945945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-27224785952178145272015-11-23T15:27:43.266-05:002015-11-23T15:27:43.266-05:00First, the relationship between teachers and stude...First, the relationship between teachers and students is different than that between managers and their subordinates. The more appropriate analogy would question whether principals are responsible for the performance of their teacherrs. And the answer to that question is yes. As to teachers, their relationship to students is like a doctor's relationship to a patient. Their job is to improve the education (or health) of the studnet (or patient). And if they fail to do so to an appropriate standard,then their consumers students (or patients) may not longer choose to receive their services - and should have a choice to seek a different provider - just as patients do with doctors.<br /><br />Get your analogy right before you make assertions.alanbackmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174033131550945945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-86734960993528659652015-11-23T15:24:18.257-05:002015-11-23T15:24:18.257-05:00With all due respect, your self interest clouds un...With all due respect, your self interest clouds unbiased judgement. The simple solution to "the union is legally obligated to represent them whether they're members or not !" which is part of the Taft Harley law is to remove this obligation of unions for non-paying members done in coordination with removing the reponsibility of those not interested in joining the union from paying dues - all part of the Friedrich's case before the Supreme Court.<br /><br />From now on, if the union wants consumers of its services, it will need to persuade people to pay them rather than compelling them to do so.alanbackmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174033131550945945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-18673972483742753692015-11-20T21:41:44.225-05:002015-11-20T21:41:44.225-05:00"you'll find a lot of teachers deciding t..."you'll find a lot of teachers deciding that the union dues just aren't worth it and departing the union of their own free will." Ugh. Of course, some will decide not to pay fair share. The union is legally obligated to represent them whether they're members or not! Rather than recognize their own obligation to support the institution that got them decent pay and benefits, and protects their rights at work, some will let others bear the cost. That's why dues wouldn't be "worth it" -- they'll still get all the benefits with none of the cost. It's a pretty crappy thing to do to your fellow teachers, but I guess some folks are just free-loaders.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161465812581166166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-88498689096845124402015-11-20T21:40:47.839-05:002015-11-20T21:40:47.839-05:00"you'll find a lot of teachers deciding t..."you'll find a lot of teachers deciding that the union dues just aren't worth it and departing the union of their own free will." Ugh. Of course, some will decide not to pay fair share. The union is legally obligated to represent them whether they're members or not! Rather than recognize their own obligation to support the institution that got them decent pay and benefits, and protects their rights at work, some will let others bear the cost. That's why dues wouldn't be "worth it" -- they'll still get all the benefits with none of the cost. It's a pretty crappy thing to do to your fellow teachers, but I guess some folks are just free-loaders.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10161465812581166166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-54657733914459922612015-11-20T19:29:39.350-05:002015-11-20T19:29:39.350-05:00"Well, get over it ! Educational reform is he..."Well, get over it ! Educational reform is here to stay."<br /><br />Right. There Is No Alternative. Resistance is Futile. You sound like Margaret Thatcher. Or the Borg.<br /><br />Incidentally, since you support test-based "accountability", do you think everyone should be accountable for actions of people lower on the food chain? Should managers be accountable for the actions of their workers? Should CEOs be accountable for the actions of the entire company? Should, for instance, Jamie Dimon go to jail for the fraud committed by Chase Bank? Should Hillary be accountable for her emails and Benghazi? Should charter authorizers be accountable for charter fraud and abuse? Or is it only teachers who should be accountable for what kids do?Diennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570040547158789834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-50650294672020825992015-11-20T19:24:30.365-05:002015-11-20T19:24:30.365-05:00Yes, Alan, speaking fees. Cripes. You think she ...Yes, Alan, speaking fees. Cripes. You think she should speak for free? Do you?<br /><br />Anyway, I don't know what your beef is with unions anyway. The two major ones agree with you on just about everything. They support charters, Common Core, BS Testing, test based "accountability", Hillary Clinton. Please tell me some substantive point you disagree with Randi Weingarten on? Hey, come to think of it, maybe you're the union shill - after all, Peter disagrees with Randi a lot more than you do.Diennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570040547158789834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-7160459953087726332015-11-20T18:32:15.510-05:002015-11-20T18:32:15.510-05:00So she's not paying teachers union dues.So she's not paying teachers union dues.Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-19749308984930834862015-11-20T17:59:39.459-05:002015-11-20T17:59:39.459-05:00There are very few ineffective or "bad" ...There are very few ineffective or "bad" teachers in my urban district. Most teachers are hardworking, dedicated, and care about the students. All three of my children had the bad luck to have the same bad first grade teacher (out of three in the school). I considered her bad because she seemed to have no knowledge of cognitive learning strategies, and told the students not to bother her with questions. But at that level, standardized tests would not have helped identify this. Thankfully she retired. The two different teachers the three of them had for second grade were both excellent teachers who used innovative learning strategies, and I was able to observe their classes. My son had a bad teacher in fifth grade; she either didn't understand cognitive strategies or was too distracted by personal issues she was having that year to use them effectively. She would put them in groups but give them no clear direction and so had problems with classroom management. The good thing was that he had different teachers for different subjects that year, and the other two he had were very good. My one daughter had a mediocre, because of being lazy and not dedicated, fifth grade teacher, but other than that, all their elementary teachers were good. <br /><br />All their junior high teachers were good except for my daughters' seventh grade science teacher that the administration thought was great because he used some kind of "exploratory" program out of Michigan State. It's true they learned how to make inferences, but they learned that first quarter and didn't learn anything else the rest of the year. But their eighth grade science teacher was excellent.<br /><br />In high school all their teachers were good except for one my son had who was lazy, an English teacher my daughter had who was much more into being baseball coach than teaching English and just went through the motions, and a science teacher my daughters had who was on the "career ladder" and was supposedly excellent, but who they both agreed was the worst teacher they had ever had. She didn't know how to explain anything, would insult them if they asked questions, and never gave back any work. She had really nice bulletin boards, though. Oh, and the one math teacher one of my daughters had who had no social skills and would verbally abuse the students by insulting them, thinking he was making a joke. I had to get her switched to another class, and they eventually fired him. <br /><br />So by my calculations, out of 41 K-12 teachers, my son had three bad teachers, two excellent teachers, and 36 good teachers. One of my daughters, out of 49 teachers, had two bad teachers, four excellent teachers, and 43 good teachers. My other daughter, out of 47 teachers, had four bad teachers, five excellent teachers, and 36 good teachers. The ones who were bad were not as effective as they could have been because they didn't have enough knowledge of cognitive learning strategies and psychology and/or were not dedicated enough. Standardized test scores would not have shown this, and since most of their teachers were good, it didn't hurt their education. My daughters both graduated college summa cum laude and have post-graduate degrees. My son was never as academically inclined, but he got a college degree which, although not clearly helpful for a career, is useful to him in life because it's helped him to understand himself, other people, and the world. <br /><br />Even parents who aren't teachers can tell if the teachers are caring and if their children are learning, without standardized tests.Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-69726251728737738362015-11-20T17:57:42.712-05:002015-11-20T17:57:42.712-05:00Yeah, New York does sound like a mess. From readi...Yeah, New York does sound like a mess. From reading about other places, I realize Ohio had quite a good public education system before charters and Kasich. Within the districts, we had alternative schools, magnet schools, tons of foreign languages, immersion schools, CAD classes, anything you could want, tons of choices. The charters in my area mostly get worse ratings than most of the district schools, certainly not better. Kasich has added tons of meaningless paperwork.<br /><br />Before standardized tests scores started being used to evaluate teachers, the main thing they were used for was to track students. I don't think this is a valid use of them either, because too often minority students were tracked into the lower levels. We mostly stopped doing that quite a while ago. <br /><br />Just because only 38% of students in New York were deemed "college ready" according to scores on a standardized test doesn't mean only 38% of teachers were effective. It's known that standardized tests are not as good a predictor of college success as student grades, which is why colleges are going away from requiring ACT and SAT entrance scores. The other point is that not all students want to go to a four year college. I think all students should have some kind of post-secondary skills training, but an associate degree or an apprenticeship can also lead to a career that can make a student happy. What we need to do is do a better job of helping students realize where their talents and interests lie. <br /><br />The American Statistical Association (AMA) says that teachers account for only somewhere between 0% and 14% of influence on a student's learning. Maybe the NY teachers were as effective as they could be, given the circumstances. The AMA also says that standardized tests and VAMs are not valid indicators of an individual teacher's effectiveness. Add to that the fact that the tests are only given in math and English, yet teachers in other subjects are also judged by these scores, and yeah, why wouldn't we be upset about being judged by a totally invalid evaluation system.<br /><br />I know you would like there to be a simple, "objective" way of evaluating teachers, but it doesn't exist. The only fair way to evaluate teachers is by a combination of portfolios of student work, observations, and student and parent satisfaction.<br />Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-43486732707211372102015-11-20T17:54:25.230-05:002015-11-20T17:54:25.230-05:00Dienne isn't even a teacher.Dienne isn't even a teacher.Rebecca deCocahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168718846105012814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-80217106530143125742015-11-20T17:02:52.581-05:002015-11-20T17:02:52.581-05:00Well, you have just proven your dishonesty to even...Well, you have just proven your dishonesty to even the liberals who read this. In one of the articles, Ravitch even admitted to being paid fees by the teachers unions. She simply stated that such fees didn't influence her ( sure ...). But here you go just impugning the source rather than admitting that you were wrong. I guess union advocates like you are so vested in their union dues that they can't even acknowledge the truth. Go look in a mirror.alanbackmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174033131550945945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-23997749845011718712015-11-20T16:59:55.594-05:002015-11-20T16:59:55.594-05:00Swing and a miss. Like the Wright Brothers, educa...Swing and a miss. Like the Wright Brothers, educational refomers are trying to use objective measures like standardized tests to assess how students are faring and then to group students to measure how teachers and schools are faring in helping students learn. I've said this before, but we've used tests without issue for decades including the NAEP (which even Greene has supported) and the SAT. Are those tests really better than tests like the PARCC ? Maybe, but it seems a lot more likely that teachers didn't have an issue with these tests before because they weren't used to measure teacher performance. And that's the real issue, isn't it ? Even if the tests perfectly measured student learning, teachers would rail against their use. It is anathema for teachers to accept the use of tests (even though teachers test their kids all the time) because allowing for tests means that you can measure teacher effectiveness. And this idea that there are good teachers and bad teachers is simply antithetical to the uniformity preached by teachers unions. <br /><br />Well, get over it ! Educational reform is here to stay. There are over 6,500 charter schools - over 2x the number from just 8 years ago. Charters already teach over 1/3 of students in many metropolitan areas and they are growing. Teachers unions can either continue to fight a losing battle or they can accept the need for educational reform and do what they can to compete with the charters (for a change !) rather than just disparage their success. alanbackmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174033131550945945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-31302555479928916442015-11-20T16:23:22.018-05:002015-11-20T16:23:22.018-05:00No, sorry, the Wright brothers never flew. They b...No, sorry, the Wright brothers never flew. They built machines that flew. Trying to measure student learning is about as effective as jumping off a building and flapping your arms.Diennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570040547158789834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-12101702935378452252015-11-20T16:21:26.328-05:002015-11-20T16:21:26.328-05:00Oh Jesus, Whitney Tilson? Rashawn Biddle? Ken Hi...Oh Jesus, Whitney Tilson? Rashawn Biddle? Ken Hirsh? These are the people you cite as sources? All of whom have massive stakes in the ed rephorm game and all of whom have a grudge against Diane. Yeah, believable.Diennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570040547158789834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-15582200472083698302015-11-20T15:51:14.402-05:002015-11-20T15:51:14.402-05:00See links below. Please don't make it so easy...See links below. Please don't make it so easy next time. And since I did prove it, why don't you retract your criticism and acknowledge that Ravitch is a teachers union mouthpiece ? Or is what's good for the goose not good for the gander ? <br /><br />http://dropoutnation.net/2011/12/01/diane-ravitch-24885-teachers-union-pay-day/<br /><br />http://ny.chalkbeat.org/2011/08/17/diane-ravitch-union-speaking-fees-did-not-change-my-mind/#.Vk-HP3arTIUalanbackmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174033131550945945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-72006318830601773102015-11-20T15:47:48.312-05:002015-11-20T15:47:48.312-05:00Attempting to fly. Interesting analogy. A lot of...Attempting to fly. Interesting analogy. A lot of guys tried that and failed. And then along came these two guys named the Wright Brothers. Now you can fly cheaper than you can drive or take the train. It's amazing what you can do what (a) you aren't afraid of progress and (b) you keep trying and aren't afraid to be judged by your outcomes. alanbackmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174033131550945945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-76549911614294362412015-11-20T14:54:44.734-05:002015-11-20T14:54:44.734-05:00"... attempt to measure...."
Well, that..."... attempt to measure...."<br /><br />Well, that's pretty weak sauce. I could attempt to fly, I suppose - it would be about as effective.Diennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570040547158789834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-81069744220135432182015-11-20T14:51:49.714-05:002015-11-20T14:51:49.714-05:00Diane is NOT paid by the unions. If you have proo...Diane is NOT paid by the unions. If you have proof otherwise, please provide it. Otherwise, retract that statement.Diennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570040547158789834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-58999774305003564382015-11-20T11:33:17.488-05:002015-11-20T11:33:17.488-05:00St. Louis needs help from actual journalists....My...St. Louis needs help from actual journalists....My niece in law....Sarah Reckhow....would be good, but probably does not have the time or interest.....I guess Peter and Diane probably will not, either. Here is the story.....several years of cancelled raises by the state appointed board...St. Louis teachers decry district for not letting them advance---the reporter refuses to say anything about all the charter schools... http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/st-louis-teachers-decry-district-for-not-letting-them-advance/article_a9cca1d2-335f-5065-a261-fc9cf393162a.html My comments were pretty heated..the last one....3.Write to Diane Ravitch or Peter Greene-------you have to get national attention focused on this.......I am not sure whether there is anyplace else where this krap is being done.(I cannot figure out how to get the link to the article to work....Elisa Crouch was the author, it is in today's paper).kjoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02802238183707263910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-21236058659759608312015-11-20T10:22:14.322-05:002015-11-20T10:22:14.322-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.kjoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02802238183707263910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-5191458868748737872015-11-20T10:08:38.305-05:002015-11-20T10:08:38.305-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.kjoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02802238183707263910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6534665086749553287.post-54318676702016990952015-11-20T10:01:55.968-05:002015-11-20T10:01:55.968-05:00@ Cut to Chase -
1. If you can't see the sim...@ Cut to Chase - <br /><br />1. If you can't see the similarity between Ravitch (who is actually paid by the unions by the way) calling for master teachers to "assists the less experienced teacher as she examines her own practice" and prescriptive teaching, then I suggest you get your eyes checked. Of course, everyone has their own style. But if certain methods of teaching work better,why should every teacher (particularly a young teacher) try to reinvent the wheel ? That makes no sense.<br /><br />3. Feel free to "take the gloves off" - because you've been so polite and even-tempered so far. Do you really think you are helping yourselves though with this constant resistance to reform ? Get out of your echo chamber for a minute. Most people at this point see teachers unions as an impediment to education. And this has increased recently. See link below. When you have both Republicans AND Democrats (Obama, Cuomo, Raimondo, etc) recognize the need for reform (longer school days, ease of teacher hiring/ firing, test based accountability, etc.) and the public supports this (as the poll suggests), you ought to easily see that the teachers union position appears vile and full of self-interest. And this article is a perfect example of that.<br /><br />https://reason.com/blog/2012/09/10/polling-shows-most-americans-think-teachalanbackmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174033131550945945noreply@blogger.com